She-Hulk and Daredevil: Attorneys at Law
(SHLD Ep. 8)
Greg Lambert 0:19
Imagine running a SuperHuman Law Division of a law firm. That's exactly what we're going to talk about here. And we're going to start off the series by reviewing the new She-Hulk: Attorney at Law on Disney plus. So let's dive into Episode Eight, Ribbit and Rip It. I'm Greg Lambert and this week I reached out to local Los Angeles Council lawyer Ashley Carlisle, who is the Head of Marketing at HyperDraft. Ashley, Thanks for stepping in for Joshua, who couldn't make it in this week. Very happy to have you here. So before we get into this episode, what do you think of the series so far?
Ashley Carlisle 0:55
I'm really excited to chat with you today. Because, you know, this episode really led me to start liking the series more if I'm being honest, I think Daredevil helped a lot of things. And it helped me kind of appreciate a lot of the easter eggs that have been throughout the series. I'm not gonna lie. At the beginning, I was kinda like, where's this going? I'm not quite sure if I've into it, especially with the origin story. At the beginning. I was like, Is this necessary? What is her character? Are we going to like her? Is this going to be all about being like a girl and, you know, a lot of random comments about how hard it is to be a woman, which are all true, but you know, this, I came for a lawyer show that has a lot of, you know, Action Comics. So I'm very happy that kind of in this episode, there's the law, there's action, there's Daredevil, it kind of has it all. I would say that also in this episode, I kind of started noticing some of the little details that I had missed earlier. And so I went back and I didn't realize how many cool easter eggs there are throughout this series. Like there's the Ally McBeal references in the Legal Ease Bar, which is just a great name. I think there's some Ruth Bader Ginsburg references as well, just with the set pieces. So I'm definitely excited for the next episode to see how they're going to end us off, because I just think the details are coming together.
Greg Lambert 2:11
Yep. And I don't know if you notice, but actually, I think it may have been in episode one or two, when they first introduced legalese Ally McBeal The show is actually playing on the TV behind them as they're as they're talking. So
Ashley Carlisle 2:27
yes, and I am a big fan of Ally McBeal. I know people are gonna say various things about it is absolutely an insane romantic comedy. You know, like, you have the Wookiee chuck a little guy, that's like Lizzie McGuire style on the TV screen. It's crazy, but it really was like a young cool attorney. So it makes sense that there's parallels because you know, she is a younger attorney, she is living her life she is dating so I definitely like and you know, there's a romantic comedy to this too, which Marvel rarely does. So I do like the commonalities between the two and I'm glad they're kind of embracing that.
Greg Lambert 3:00
Yeah, yeah, me too. I do like the fact that this is a as they say lawyer show and we get a you know this the combination of action but also the the legal part as well. Otherwise, we wouldn't have this podcast. So
Ashley Carlisle 3:15
yeah, gotta judge their legal realism you got an issue spot.
Greg Lambert 3:20
So we're going to cover the penultimate episode here in season one and really kind of breaks down into I think about four different scenes that we see so we have leapfrogs case first and then we have a short scene with the with the slimy Todd Phelps client of GLK/H we get a little bit more leap frog action with a with a really cool cameo. And then we get the gala at the end so let's start off with the leap frog case. Just to set kind of the the facts here we have the scene open with Leap Frog as calling himself the guard frog as he is I guess has taken it upon himself to protect this electronic store that it's being robbed. He gets into a fight with a couple of the guys and then he says his magic catchphrase of rebut and rip it which I
Ashley Carlisle 4:25
think is the best yeah, like I love how they're using it throughout the episode i Even though he's horrible. I want to adopt it for myself as well. It's like a pumpup jam. I feel like it could be a rap song.
Greg Lambert 4:35
I love the fact that that even Holloway was was was using it as well. So he goes to launch and use a suit. His suit comes crashing down when his apparently jet pack around his feet fails and he crashes and has third degree burns around his legs and of course is wanting to to sue for damages. So what were your thoughts about the interaction with with She-Hulk? Jennifer Walters?
Ashley Carlisle 5:09
Yeah, I think it was interesting. They just jumped right into the law on this episode. Because you know, in others, sometimes it's been in the end, or it's just like a blip. First and foremost, I will point out, it's very obvious that she does not like this client. And I think that happens a lot. And I think lawyers, you know, most of the time, we don't have to meet our clients in person, especially, you know, on the age of COVID, and post COVID. But sometimes it is hard when you really don't like the person to have to be professional and turn it on. I don't know if she was really trying not hard. But I thought it was a funny kind of commentary of things that happen in real life, there are a couple of things that very Hollywood about kind of this consultation. I don't know if you noticed, but like her screen was pointed towards the camera, and you could see like a pleading she was working on. And I was just so confused, because I was like, I guess you would be reviewing your document with your client. But like, I don't see you asking him questions. And as we find out in the hearing later, like she really didn't ask him questions about his claim. So it's like, why is the screen out? Like 101, like, confidential documents you like, lock your screen, you put them away? It's just like a thing you're taught to do. Also, you know, just the lack of asking questions, I think she wanted to get them out as quickly as possible. But as we find out, when she goes to court, later on, she didn't really have even the basics covered of like the claim. You know, with products liability, it's pretty simple in regards to the fact that it has to be reasonable use, and you have to follow instructions. And obviously, there were some issues there. But I think the main thing, and I'm not very familiar with LeapFrog, but I did a little bit of research, and it seems like him and his dad, who is also a client at the firm in the comics are kind of this larger than life character who like think they're a superhero, and they kind of just are horrible, which you know, is showcased here, you try to be Tony Stark, but money can't buy you everything. So I also think it's an interesting thing with, you know, her being stuck with this big clients kid, which I've never had to personally deal with. But you always hear the stories. And you know, I think client service at the end of the day, you have to have a book of business, you have to keep people happy, especially when you're doing work for bigger clients. And so kind of having that dynamic I thought was very interesting, too, because she was kind of just dealt to deal with this person.
Greg Lambert 7:25
Yeah, I think one of the things that I know, at least most of the firms that I know of, while some of some of us will will meet with clients in our office, most of the time, we will take them into a conference room and talk to them just because there's less distractions there. You don't have your screen and your email popping up. I guess you still have your, your cell phone. So but I think it's been consistent throughout the whole show. Jen's not a very good interviewer of clients, getting information out of them. And there's so much information that pops up at trial, which again, we've we've kind of said in the Marvel 616 universe, you have to have the trial start and end within 23 minutes, or however long you've got in the episode. And so I think again, yeah, there was a lot of kind of rushing this through and not getting a good information from from her client. We also run into the famous conflicts process, again, at law firms, which happens a lot. I know I'm I'm over the conflicts team at my firm. And so you know, we have a complete staff dedicated to it. Plus, all the attorneys have to clear conflict. So it's one of those things that happens, but seems to happen a lot with with Jen really does every case. Yeah. And this one's a little unique in the fact that it's not a conflict with another client. It's actually a ethical conflict that she has because Luke Jacobson, who is her tailor is also the tailor for leap frog, and has designed a suit so she understands immediately that this case is going to go against someone with whom she has a personal relationship with, as you know, and as a customer of his and immediately and I think this is right on her part. Yeah, definitely raises this issue goes to Holloway, and says, Hey, I understand that this may not be a conflict that we can't overcome. But ethically I feel like I can't represent this client because how did she say with her unique physique? That Did you know that she would really hate to lose her Taylor over this? And Holloway? Again, I guess this is the one thing that the writers on the show learned about with with legal. And that was the the issue of conflict waivers and that a client, as long as they are well aware of what is going on and what what the potential conflict is that they can actually sign a waiver and say, I understand this conflict issue, I am going to go ahead and allow my attorney to represent me, even though there may be this conflict. And of course, the attorney has to do everything they can to reduce anything with that conflict.
Ashley Carlisle 10:42
Yeah, she does have a conflict issue. Well, I said, I agree with you that she did handle it in the moment, which I guess, cut shorter interview, which did not help her interviewing skills, but she did directly go to the managing partner, she followed the California Rules. One thing I will say is, I haven't had to do many waivers, I think maybe two, they were not as quick as these. These seem to just happen magically. You know, he's like, Oh, they have already agreed. They somehow already know this is an issue, even though you're bringing it to me in this moment. Typically, in the real world, in my experience that takes a week or two even just to get the person like, Hey, knock, knock, like please even give me the time of day to explain this. Send your E signature back. So that's a little fanciful in this.
Greg Lambert 11:23
Yeah. I think the conflict here though, would be the client would have to sign off on it, not the opposing party.
Ashley Carlisle 11:31
Right, what that brings? No, but typically, I don't know, my clients in the past. You know, sometimes they're on yachts. Sometimes they're at conferences. I had one in Pakistani airspace, sometimes getting signatures can be harder than you can think. But yeah, so I think she did handle it correctly. I think she followed the California rule, which is you obviously have to disclose it written consent, what have you. I think it is interesting in the fact that we are seeing that the superhero world is super insular. And so she is She kind of knows a lot of the major players just because it's kind of a small little club. So you know, the typical conflicts check is just current clients, former clients, what have you, it sounds like maybe they may need to widen it for her just make a list of everyone that's kind of superhero adjacent, that she has some type of personal relationship with in the future, because it seems like this is gonna keep happening. Another thing that I just and I don't know if you guys have talked about this, but I was bothered a few episodes ago with like, the you have to be She-Hulk at work thing. Oh, yeah. Just because that just seems like an employment issue to me, like you have that's basically being like, Okay, I'm gonna treat every other attorney this way. But we expect you to act this way. And then her identity has been revealed to the firm doesn't even have a good argument, like Jennifer Walters, and She-Hulk are publicly known to be the same person. So you can't even make the argument that she has to be in a different form for it to be known that she's a superhero. So that has bothered me throughout that, like, I'm not a big fan of Holloway, he's one of my I think might be bad guys like in my head, that I'm like, this might be him in the end. But this also, when she had this conversation of like, because of my unique physique, I need to be on good terms with the designer. It also just made me mad for her of like, well, if they didn't make up She Hulk everywhere. You wouldn't have to have this problem. Like if they just let you be Jennifer Walters at work. You wouldn't have to like, find these outfits that are expandable for you and still look fashionable will really her personal assistant wouldn't have to go and get all these outfits for her. Sorry,
Greg Lambert 13:29
personal assistant, paralegal, secretary, stylist
Ashley Carlisle 13:37
Greg Lambert 13:37
Yeah, Nikki, the the paralegal does everything. So it's she she is a dream employee, I guess. But yeah, you're right. The fact and in fact, it's it's kind of brought up. But again, here because Holloway again, says, Eugene, who's leapfrog is very excited to have a She-Hulk on the on the case. And so you know, it's this. And again, I want to bring you back next week to talk more about the marketing thing. But really, the only reason that Jennifer Walters is the head of the SuperHuman Law Division, is because she's the She-Hulk. And so and I think that's made clear, right up front. I think she she kind of found herself in again, even with this. She could not take the case, but I think it was implied that she doesn't take the case. She's not going to be working at GE okay. And ah,
Ashley Carlisle 14:37
she didn't really negotiate herself a good deal at the secret accepting immediately at the bar. So yeah, not a lot of leverage here.
Greg Lambert 14:43
Yeah, there's not a lot of good contracts that are made at the bar. So
Ashley Carlisle 14:51
that sounds right. I don't have any evidence to that. But yeah,
Greg Lambert 14:53
So Holloway actually gives her a suggestion, which I think is legit because most cases you not go to court. Most cases are settled out of court. And so his idea is, Jen, go talk to Luke and see if you can make this thing go away. And and she does. And, man, it doesn't go well.
Ashley Carlisle 15:16
It doesn't go well. And this is me being persnickety. I know, in the real world, you know, things happen, and also a case technically hasn't been filed yet. But like, Where was the line where she's like, Oh, by the way, you probably should get a lawyer and you should let me know if you already have one who I should contact like, I was just waiting. It was like they knew what a conflicts waiver was like, someone please put that line in there somewhere. So people don't think it's normal for like the opposing side's lawyer just come up to you and start talking. Because that's, that's not good. Not kosher. In most cases.
Greg Lambert 15:47
That's happened quite a bit over quite a bit, you know, over the eight episodes that we that we've had, it's probably happened at least eight times where they've talked with the opposing party without cowardy without counsel. So
Ashley Carlisle 16:02
Greg Lambert 16:03
Ashley Carlisle 16:04
Should always ask or encourage. make clear that you are not their attorney, that you are opposing all the good things
Greg Lambert 16:12
will especially since she had ongoing work with him with the the dress for the gala that he's making, which he assumes that's why she's there in the first place. Yeah. And so yeah, good.
Ashley Carlisle 16:25
He hasn't been served yet. He doesn't know what's going on. Yes. The whole thing. I cringed the whole time. I was like, Please someone say it someone. Yeah. Or even just a subtitle to something.
Greg Lambert 16:38
Yeah. And I don't think Jin had any legal recourse when he decided that he was not going to make her a gala dress after she came in and kind of blindsided him with the with talk of a lawsuit. And then and then that's exactly what she says, Well, in that case, I'll see you in court. Yeah, not good. Not good.
Ashley Carlisle 17:01
I find that most people who aren't lawyers, even lawyers, you mentioned lawsuit, you're immediately losing a friend. Like that doesn't doesn't doesn't go over? Well. I think she learned that lesson. Never joke about it. When you talk about it, that's gonna happen.
Greg Lambert 17:15
Exactly, exactly. So as what happens in the in at least in this universe, we immediately go to court somehow or the other. We the court seemed to be wide open, and you get the same judge every time
Ashley Carlisle 17:31
Same judge which in LA, it's random assignment and wasn't the first wasn't the first I could be wrong. The first matter was criminal. Right. So criminal and civil all being in front of the same key seems like a nice judge seems great. Seems like it's out of order the rules a bit with how the you know, the talking goes, but like, what are the chances of that? Also, that looks way nicer than the LA courtrooms that I have seen? I'm not a litigator, I have had to go for jury duty and some things. This is way this is an upgrade compared to Stanley mosque or anything other courtrooms in the LA area from what I've seen.
Greg Lambert 18:04
I don't think they wanted that kind of realism in the courts. But because we do get to go to court, we get the the CAMEO that we've all been waiting for. And that is well, in fact, let me back up before I'll let that cliffhanger hang out there a little bit longer. The judge sees Jacobson sitting at the table without counsel with him, and immediately says, you know, are you representing yourself? Where's your counsel? Jen, unfortunately, kind of puts their foot in their mouth and saying, Oh, great, he's not represented, get ready to, you know, get ready to count your money, which does not go well. And then we get to Matt Murdock walks in so what, what did you think of Matt coming in?
Ashley Carlisle 18:51
One, before even Matt walked in, I was very relieved that we were not going to have a weird pro se scene because even in real life, those are a train wreck. So I was worried that we were going to have some type of fanciful, weird battle in the courtroom. So happy that didn't happen. He walks in. I don't think any of us are surprised because we've seen the tease, but I was very excited. And I feel like just from my knowledge of the character, he has a lot of swagger, always. He's always kind of with that debonair voice and that does not disappoint. My favorite thing is he comes in and without, you know, and you know, different courts have different rules, but there's, you know, civil procedure and structure. The judge does not call anything to order. For some reason he talks first, he just starts questioning everyone really, the whole thing was, I mean, it was super entertaining. But looking back on it, I'm like, wait, what's happening? Like, you just go ahead and reject discovery, which that whole conversation there are some legal realism some not like confidentiality is a valid objection in California. Typically, it's balanced by a judge. They did do some research there. So you know They get a gold star for that. But the out of order the client talking and the attorney not saying, hey, please don't do that, or the judge saying, Hey, I could hold you in contempt, like, don't talk out of turn. And then somehow by the end of it, and sorry to jump ahead, but this was just incredulous to me. Matt Murdock somehow questions. The plaintiff being like, just asking questions. He's not on the stand. He's not a witness. You're not in a deposition. And he answers the plaintiff just answers willingly. And there's no like, objection. There's no stopping. I wish it was wild. It was entertaining. But I'm just like, This doesn't happen. If people think this happens in real life, they're gonna be very disappointed.
Greg Lambert 20:41
but it is. This this show itself. There's so much crosstalk you know, from not from the witness stand, but actually, at, you know, at the council's table. And it's just yeah, it's insane. Again, it kind of speeds things along, but not very realistic. There was one thing that was mentioned in passing, when Matt Murdock was talking about why he wanted the dismissal of discovery was that the Sokovia chords had been repealed. And apparently, this is the first time that there's been mention of the Sokovia chords being repealed. And for those that didn't know, this was an international un agreement signed by 119 countries, including the United States, that regulated all super powered individuals. And it moved the Avengers away from being a private organization run basically, by Tony Stark, to being run by the US government and its nefarious agencies in there. And then that was also the reason for the split in the Civil War movies, from Iron Man and taking one side to back the Sokovia Accords. And Captain America backing the side to fight the Sokovia chords and protect the super human powered individuals from being regulated by governments. And so it's really, really interesting in that, and I think that that you're probably going to see that being talked about more as we get into to other shows. But you know, so now, the super humans are no longer regulated by the Sokovia Accords. Interesting.
Ashley Carlisle 22:29
Yeah, I would love your take on it, because you're more in the MCU. And you just have a deep knowledge of, you know, comics, generally. But I saw it and I was like, okay, MCU plot device, this came out of nowhere. And I also had to, like, remind myself that this show happens, like slightly in the future, to where we are now. Like, I think it's 2024 2025. Because I was like, the whole thing was very confusing. There's so many Marvel movies that sometimes it's hard to line up the timelines. But I definitely had to Google and be like, wait, what year are we in? And also, you're just gonna rarely like just weirdly throw out like, oh, it's been repealed, like, okay, it was tangentially related to the confidentiality concerns. But I will say like, also, if we're being real here, which I don't even, I don't know, if I want to open this can of worms, but I'll slightly get into it. There's no way ever that that document would have been constitutional, or binding in the US anyways, the whole thing, the whole premise of it, even in other movies was so confusing to me. Because I was like, one, I mean, just going back to call him like, have you missing something, but like, it's not a formal treaty. treaties have to be like, what is it two thirds of the Senate have to agree that's it. Like that never happened to my knowledge and the movies. Also, even with this, like running these people to be punished in regards to this accord? Like, you still have to have right to counsel, there's still things even war criminals have, we're just like, Wait, this isn't represented? And then would equal protection? Like, does that apply here at all? There's so many things that I was like, okay, so you're gonna bring up this random MCU plot device in a courtroom, which is going to lead all these other legal questions about this in the first place. But we're not going to dive into that, because that is just like, not helping the storyline. We're just gonna throw it out there. Move on to the next thing, it'll probably be a thing in Captain America or what conda or whatever the whatever films are happening in the next year in the MCU. Universe, right. I thought it was hilarious. And at first, I was like, how is this related? And then I was like, I guess it's tangentially related. And I liked Daredevil. So I'll just let him have it. But definitely going out there on a limb.
Greg Lambert 24:25
In your right, that would be a whole separate, we could do a multi episode podcast on just the Sokovia Accords and the legality of that. So but it does lead to that part where you were talking about the the crosstalk across the council's tables. And with LeapFrog, pulling out a suit and Matt Murdock apparently not caring if people might notice that. He used a sniffer to determine the HIV use jet fuel.
Ashley Carlisle 24:57
Also preservation of evidence. Yeah. I just saw many things just happens to have it.
Greg Lambert 25:03
Yeah, just here just show up to with your suit here at you know, basically I think, you know, the pre trial hearing. Yeah. So again, you get that crosstalk Eugene admits that he had put in jet fuel which was against the, the,
Ashley Carlisle 25:20
the instructions Yeah, manufacturer's instructions.
Greg Lambert 25:23
Yeah. And in true MCU She-Hulk universe legal thing, the case immediately gets dismissed right on the spend.
Ashley Carlisle 25:34
The judge decides without motion like ticket typically right? At least Daredevil would be like, you know, motion for summary judgment. This is ridiculous. Like, they just throw away their case, the judge just decides to have his moment and just like interject like this is dismissed, like what? He seems like a nice guy once again, but like, I was just like, what is happening here?
Greg Lambert 25:55
Well, maybe maybe the shapeshifter is still pretending to be the judge. So that's,
Ashley Carlisle 26:00
perhaps that character went and came so soon, she could have wreaked a lot more havoc. Yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed that one.
Greg Lambert 26:07
Yeah, I don't know that we're done with her in she hope. So case is tossed, who will just let that lie where it is, and just kind of grin and bear it. And then Jen and Matt meet up at will coincidentally meet back up at the legal ease bar, where Matt comes over and talks about his law practice. But I do have to notice that it's very vague, other than the fact that he has a law practice in Hell's Kitchen. There's no mention of Foggy Nelson, there's no mention of Karen Page, there's no mention of any of the of the characters that we grew to, like in love in in the Netflix version of Daredevil. So not sure where that's going to go. But he does talk about this interesting thing about doing one for them, so that he can do one for us. And so he talks about his practice being mostly pro bono practice, which, unless you're independently wealthy, or have a benefactor, that's not not really a good practice to have. Right. Unless, you know, maybe the the one the cases that he does for rich clients pays really well so that he can do these other things. And I know you hear that a lot with with acting.
Ashley Carlisle 27:34
For people do one for that one for me, the movies, yeah,
Greg Lambert 27:38
does a big blockbuster. So they can do an art film, that sort of thing. So, but he does have a, you know, kind of a really interesting suggestion. I don't know if it's good or bad or whatnot. But interesting, where he applies that to how Jennifer Walters, practices and lives. And he says that, you know, the Jennifer Walters can help society or people when society fails them. And the She-Hulk can help when the law fails them. And so we get into, I mean, it's kind of a hint, I guess you could do it without being a vigilante. But the way he does it is vigilante ism.
Ashley Carlisle 28:16
Right? So trying to get someone else to take his approach. I thought that was a really cool line, one for them. One for me, I wish that was how it was in legal practice. Maybe some people have that approach. But that's typically not how it goes.
Greg Lambert 28:31
Usually 100 For them, you know, one for me,
Ashley Carlisle 28:34
or I try to hit my 20 to depending on the firm's policy, 20 to 50 hours a year of pro bono, which is still good, and we should be doing more. But yeah, I thought it was interesting. He didn't mention the other named attorneys of his practice. I wasn't sure because I'm not as much of an expert as you if maybe it was a timeline thing. Like we're ahead of where Daredevil left off, and some stuff had happened or something like that. But I did think that was interesting. And then also, I think this is just obviously leading up to I don't know if it's going to be building guilt and She-Hulk. But something of her wondering, like, why am I working for Holloway and all of these people that I don't necessarily like when you know, this cute guy who's very suave, like gets to live this lifestyle. And you know, so I think it's an interesting progression right before the finale.
Greg Lambert 29:21
Yeah, yeah. So Matt Murdock gets a phone call. Jen gets a text. And so you know, they, even though you could kind of tell there's some chemistry there. Life as a lawyer in superhuman, apparently pulls them apart at this time. And Jen gets a text from slimy Todd Phelps.
Ashley Carlisle 29:43
He's the worst he is the worst, creepiest client.
Greg Lambert 29:47
Yeah. And so it's a text that says, hey, I've got a legal issue. I want you to meet me for dinner. Kind of weird in when
Ashley Carlisle 29:57
she doesn't reply immediately the double tax being I was told that this is a 24/7. Practice. I'll tell your boss if it's not. Thank goodness, I've never encountered that in real life. But also, and I know people have varying opinions on this texting clients just sounds like huge boundary breach for me. You know, I know some people do it in their practice, or they do it through like an independent have another number just for texting clients updates or whatever. But especially with a creepy client like this guy. I would not advise anyone have any text messaging going on unless it was absolutely necessary.
Greg Lambert 30:31
Yeah. And Todd tells her that he has bought the Wakandan warspear. With my God gives him possession of Vibranium, which was his kind of, you know, kind of creepy thing a mass made you wonder about, is he trying to create a needle to take the blood from general she's in She-Hulk form. So yeah. And then of course, it's not just that issue, because he's telling us to look the you know, there's an issue because apparently, the nation of Wakanda wants wants this back, because apparently it was stolen by some colonialist or something like that, and not, but I've got the receipts, I own this. And then of course, as probably happens more than we want to admit, you're at dinner, the client all of a sudden then turns it and starts hitting on gin. So of which she, you know, robots and gets out of there. And I laugh because she turns to him and says, By the way, I'm billing you for the whole hour. Yes, I clean up blame her. And so I thought that was a good retort for that. But again, don't put yourself in bad positions. So
Ashley Carlisle 31:43
also, don't be a creep. I also think Todd is I have three people in the running for the big bad. I also think he's up there with me, Holloway, Todd, and we'll get to my last one as we go on. But yeah, he's problematic. More. So with every breath he takes, like, even just trying to do the hand symbol and saying he studied abroad, they're like, not like, they must have had so much fun writing that character and all the garbage that comes out of his mouth, because every single word, I was like, this kid just wants to be punched in the face. Like, who is this person? This is awful. I do think it was a fun, you know, for looking at from a legal issue. antiquities theft, kind of looting how that's become more of an issue in the last decade. I mean,
Greg Lambert 32:23
even even last few weeks. Yeah, I
Ashley Carlisle 32:26
mean, it just continues, because who knows how much of this has happened, it's hard to actually prove when and where someone looted these artifacts that could be that could have been like years ago, centuries ago. I mean, so much has happened. It's really hard to get the evidentiary support for that. But you know, from like museums, like here in Los Angeles, like the Getty Villa, and some of the Geddes artifacts, like a significant amount of them had to be returned. You know, I think Kim Kardashian somehow was caught up in that antique thing as well, where she had to return like five or so Italian artifacts that were looted, just. But I think at the end of the day, what she didn't get into because she wanted to get out of dodge and not deal with him hitting on her and whatnot. As long as he didn't know that it was stolen. Obviously, he'll have to return it. And he could probably sue them for some restitution, or whatever damages were caused. But I just thought it was so random. Did you get the Black Panther connection in that? I just thought it was like, why is it because they have a new movie coming out? Is it because it's going to be tied into another? I thought it was such a random? I think it'd be artifact from anywhere.
Greg Lambert 33:31
I think it was to show that Todd had Vibranium because She Hulk injection. Yeah. Cuz if you remember on their on their blind date, or on their date with the dating app, he asked Is she you know, is their skin impenetrable? Right. And then he specifically says, even with Vibranium. And so So I think this is to show that he has Vibranium in his possession. Whether it's legally or illegal, I think that's the only reason that that we had the scene was to also make you wonder, Is he the big bad or somebody else? The Big Bad? Is he just a goof? Or is he evil? Or both? So how they both? Probably both. But we find out why Daredevil left Jen at the bar, because as soon as Jen gets back, she gets a call from LeapFrog. And we get some more leap frog action. And he calls her saying that he's being basically chased and assaulted, doesn't say by whom, but somehow or another. I don't know why Jen was able to look at her phone and know exactly where he was.
Ashley Carlisle 34:46
Well, I think the joke was he had made it like a public place to look up the neon sign. That's what I thought is like he had geo tagged it like he was that big of an idiot that he was like, come find me at the lilypad Yeah, like this died was huge.
Greg Lambert 35:01
Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. And we do get to see the supersuit, which I thought was great. So she She suits up goes out, finds Eugene being basically going up to the parking garage of his. I think his secret not so secret lair. And then we see Daredevil is the one who's attacking him. And of course Jen goes into action to protect your client, little again a little iffy, but if you're superhuman, you want you want to protect your client. And this is the part where I mean we've she's always been a little destructive.
Ashley Carlisle 35:44
And what is property damage? Yeah.
Greg Lambert 35:46
Man, she goes way over the top and damaging cars. The parking garage, she punches a hole
Ashley Carlisle 35:58
through the roof tops of warehouses. Yeah, it's
Greg Lambert 36:01
so but I do think it's funny because they get into a battle between her and Daredevil, leapfrog leaves and goes to his lair. But again, she she destroys the roof of the parking garage. She destroys multiple cars. She throws what I think was probably about an $80,000 car. Yes, across and then when they're done when they kind of figured this figure this thing out. She goes, Oh, let me leave a note. I don't know that I would leave a note.
Ashley Carlisle 36:33
I thought that was cute. I you see the Jin Walters in there. But yeah, that's just nonsensical. I mean, I think it's just making fun of the fact that like they haven't explained why she's just okay with like, destroy, I mean, how many episodes in a row? Like if you were to I'm sure some insurance blog somewhere is totaling the property damage. And kind of what claims could be asserted, but there's a lot of damage, also physically injuring. And who knows what else your clients security, whether they be goons or not, that was interesting as well. I was like, okay, just gonna go for
Greg Lambert 37:08
it. Well, let's, let's get into that. Because it turns out that the reason that Daredevil is attacking leap frog is because he has kidnapped Luke Jacobson, the Taylor. And here's another thing that almost never happens. She quickly unmasked Daredevil. Yeah. So I was like, do put up a fight, you know, as like, that just never happens to where they get unmasked that quickly. So she finds out it's her opposing counsel, crush and new crush, which I think everyone had a crush on on Matt, as he showed up here. So they work out the situation understand that. Jacobson has been kidnapped and being held at the secret not so secret lily pad, and they decide to team up and go rescue Luke Jacobson, do you want to take us through that little part and what issues you?
Ashley Carlisle 38:03
Yeah, thing. I will say leapfrog seems so annoying, but his lair is pretty cool, whether it be public or not. And there are a couple of things in there. Like, did you notice he had basically his equivalent of a bat signal? That was like a leapfrog signal that made me chuckle. And then he had the frogger machines. He had like, wired lily pads in there. I mean, he really invested a lot of time and effort into this image. He might have defective, you know, wears in regards to the suits and have no ability but he really invested into this image of himself. There's
Greg Lambert 38:35
there's lots of daddy's money in there.
Ashley Carlisle 38:37
Oh, definitely. The thing that I found interesting, okay, so her client just says I'm in trouble. She gets this other intel from Daredevil, she just follows him causes a lot of damage gets in there. Before she talks to her client, she sees that the designer is tied up and just immediately goes and unties him and tells him to contact the authorities. While this is a good idea, you know, ethically do the right thing. In reality, you'd probably be like, Hey, what's going on here client also like I assume I'm representing you here to like I do your other work, but I'm sure this is here. We're gonna figure it out later. Okay, can you please untie this gentleman come to some sort of resolution see if we need to pay him off. And let's like move on with our day. The fact that she was having him call the cops I was very confused. I was like, Yeah, that's the superhero She-Hulk thing to do. But like, this is your quiet. I'm so confused. She she
Greg Lambert 39:34
did give him some advice on you know, stopping making it worse. I did. I did find it funny that Daredevil also threw in his suggestion on on how he would approach the the legal issues there.
Ashley Carlisle 39:49
I think earlier at the bar Daredevil showed how you should approach attorney client privilege. He took his phone call. He went to the side he disappeared versus she did it publicly waiving privilege we would put probably say, and then somehow opposing counsel was giving their two cents being like, Hey, yo, I heard you say that, like you realize Yeah.
Greg Lambert 40:09
Yeah, that's it's a mess all the way around. Yeah, Jen could use a little mentorship on how to handle these types of situations. So hopefully, Matt will show back up and can advise her. Maybe they can start their own law firm. It's
Ashley Carlisle 40:24
Oh, I would love that. I will say I did enjoy that in a Ribbit and Rip It fashion. It ends with leap frog jumping out of the window. Remember, the case was dismissed. So there was no resolution to the defective suit. So he just goes without anything. And like, I guess presumably breaks both legs. That's what I figured out from the stretcher. Just want to say it was hilarious. Yeah,
Greg Lambert 40:47
yeah, he leapfrog is is not the sharpest tool in the shed, to say the least. Which
Ashley Carlisle 40:54
is hard. Because I will say the smarter the client, the easier the job unless they're hiding things from you. So I feel for her. If you have a client who's rude or hits on you, or who's maybe not the quickest, and makes your job so much harder. You're hurting cats on top of doing
Greg Lambert 41:13
that. So luckily, at the end of the day, everything turns out okay, I guess
Ashley Carlisle 41:20
she make amends with the designer and makes
Greg Lambert 41:22
amends for the gala. Yep. And somehow or another. I don't know how he did it unless he had already designed the dress and had it ready. It was ready the next morning.
Ashley Carlisle 41:34
And it was a collab with one of the biggest fashion houses in the world, which the fashion nerd in me was one very shocked at the designer they picked and to like, Okay, I see you She-Hulk Like very fashionable choice. So they picked and I don't know if anyone cares. But basically, it's a very famous, I believe Lebanese designer who has done red carpet looks for every celebrity for I think the past like 10 to 15 years, I think he starred he became famous in 1999. I mean, the Met Gala. Every year, he has a table like, this is a really big fashion house randomly appearing and She-Hulk very random. And then I also thought, you know, the lawyer and me especially living in LA, what's the product placement deal here. And I kind of did some research more on the fashion side, because I rarely see like these fashion product placements. Normally you see, like, a beverage or random Dell computer or something. And what I found was most of the time, you know, it's a license for them to be able to say the name of the product, what have you. However, some of these aren't even done for money. Some of these are just to reduce the production budget. So I don't know if in the finale, she's going to have another fabulous dress that somehow was like, given to them for free so that his name could be mentioned, or if we're going to if other fashion was used in kind of the production of this. But I would love to see if this was a paid product placement or if this was just a quid pro quo. Because these dresses are expensive. His gowns typically are like 3k to 10k a pop.
Greg Lambert 43:04
It's the Marvel Cinematic Universe, they just print money, except apparently when it comes to CGI budget. So yeah,
Ashley Carlisle 43:11
sometimes they go a little bit rogue on that. Yeah.
Greg Lambert 43:15
So when the fights over, we get the thing we want to see, which is Jen and Matt hooking up. Right? Everybody's like, yes. And we go back in and my my all time this is my favorite little scene in the whole show so far. And that's the walk of shame that Daredevil has to do as he's leaving in his suit, holding his shoes walking away. I thought that was just I thought that was just funny and and hilarious. So I love
Ashley Carlisle 43:51
that they have a guy doing the walk of shame, especially in the suit. That's gonna be great for memes. And going forward.
Greg Lambert 43:57
I guess it could be one of her shirts.
Ashley Carlisle 44:00
As someone who lives in Los Angeles, my question was, my friends that come visit from New York have no idea where they are at any given time. Like where is he walking to also like, how is he getting back to his hotel? It was hilarious. But there are some logistics there was like walking in LA without shoes, just like rolling around.
Greg Lambert 44:18
I was thinking maybe there was an Uber around the corner that he that he was going to go get.
Ashley Carlisle 44:22
So where do they fit their phones in the suit?
Greg Lambert 44:27
One of the one of the places like first sale
Ashley Carlisle 44:30
was very WW II style like how is that have any pockets? And then, you know, great question. Maybe we get some product placement and additional episodes with like an iPhone or something showing where the phone fits.
Greg Lambert 44:43
Yep, exactly. That would be great. All right, so we get an additional scene, which is the gala scene. So first, we go back to Jen's apartment after Matt has made his walk of shame.
Ashley Carlisle 44:56
She breaks the fourth wall again.
Greg Lambert 44:58
And there's something in there that it's not a legal issue. But I do want to I do want to bring it up, because it's an issue that happens. And comic books a lot. So you hear her go, you know, hey, what's going on? Oh, is this where we've got this additional scene where there's another Hulk, but this time, it's red, or am I being frigid. And I had to actually look up what it meant to be frigid. And apparently it happens a lot in comic books. And in fact, Gail Simone, who's a famous comic book writer, actually had an entire website dedicated to the topic of being fridge, where she pointed out this is just a signal of extremely lazy writing on behalf of comic book writers. And so being fridge is a reference to where one character is killed or attacked as a motivator for the main character to come to their rescue. Typically, it's a woman, I think the the biggest example that was used and why the term being frigid came out, was it was a, I think, Green Arrow, Green Lantern, Green Lantern, Green Lantern, and where literally, his girlfriend was killed and put in a refrigerator. And the, you know, this is this whole thing that they needed to kind of take the focus off of the woman, put it back on the hero and move things forward so that he had a motivation to therefore go after the bad guy. And so I thought it was really interesting that they you know that they use that one because there's been a lot of talk of introducing Red Hulk into the series. So they kind of played on that. And then also the, you know, is it going to be lazy writing are we going to you know, fridge someone Nikki or someone in order to motivate She-Hulk into attacking the big bad, so I thought was interesting. We also had our third Wolverine reference in this where Nikki shows up with the somehow, again, the dresses made, shows up holds the, the makeup brushes, like Wolverine claws. So, you know, everyone's really excited to have Wolverine into the MCU.
Ashley Carlisle 47:29
That was iconic, and Nikki just always slays every scene that she's in. Yeah, I thought the fridge thing was pretty spot on for how this show has gone. So far. They're just been very unabashed about the writing. And the fact that this is a female, written, starred, directed show. And they're going to just say the things that they probably don't have the opportunity to say in other shows that are just like truths that women know, but sometimes just need to be kind of reminded to everyone else. And I did check out Gil's website, which you shared with me. And I think everyone should I mean, I just didn't realize how pervasive I guess the instances of this fridging are and then also, she had many comic book authors and writers respond about kind of if they wrote that storyline, like what they thought about it, their reflections on it years past. And I read through some of them. And I found it was very interesting, because as you said, I think the main takeaway was just a lazy writing technique. But another one is just, there are not a lot of women in this space. So it's just something that even if it's unintentional, it happens because there's no one questioning it or saying, Hey, why did we do that? Or can we switch it up? It just happens to be, you know, a lack of female representation perhaps like issue that's perpetuated? I thought it was hilarious. And then yes, the red hook thing. I think your Tod theory might be right. I don't know they're teasing it. So I'm very curious. But yeah, that whole fourth they really break the fourth wall a lot. I hated it at first. I don't know if it's growing on me, but it does help the plot progression. Yeah,
Greg Lambert 49:02
I agree. So let's, let's wrap this up and go to the gala. Oh, my God, I cringed through the whole thing. Any anything up until the MC starts taking over as she walks in? I know we had again the product placement. Yeah, that was there. What What's the designer? I I'm not a fashion guy. So
Ashley Carlisle 49:24
I might completely mispronounce the name, but it's Zuhair Murad, I believe. Yeah, Lebanese designer. He's like a big deal. And I thought the whole collab thing was interesting. There's obviously some deal that happened there for that to be there. But you're right, it somehow magically appeared in a day with a collab with another designer. So that that's very interesting. And then after the dresses showed, which was a great dress, taught us somehow they're talking to Holloway, which I was like, why is taught everywhere?
Greg Lambert 49:56
I think they're definitely hinting that he's the big bad He's a part of it. Yeah. are a part of it there. So you know, he's definitely not a good guy. I think we'll probably we'll we'll have to learn on the on the next episode because that's it.
Ashley Carlisle 50:10
Hopefully all we got for this. Yeah, so
Greg Lambert 50:11
we got for this. Alright, so I want to talk about the female lawyer of the Year Award, and one that and everyone I saw it a couple of episodes ago where Nikki holds the phone up and said, Oh, Jen, you're being you've been nominated as female lawyer of the year. Just that phrase did not sound right to me. Yeah, that's the joke. And yeah, and so, again, I think this is this is the writers of the show, pointing toward the, you know, just the terrible misogynistic public that that's out there. I looked in every time that I've seen an award that is specifically given to a woman, it is woman, you know, the the phrase is woman lawyer the year now a woman in law. We are women in law, a woman in law, it's not the phrase female is, in of itself just kind of used? You know, I think more more as a derogatory term in that context. I mean, I tried to see, is there any award where it says female? I couldn't find one?
Ashley Carlisle 51:24
No, I would hope that I would hope not to. Hopefully, it's just lawyer awards. But yeah, I've seen women in law, the like, like you said, one thing. The internet told me this, I don't actually know this, I would love for someone to confirm. I believe the other lawyers on stage other than She-Hulk and Mallory are actual female attorneys. And that's why they named them by name. Oh, really? Yes. Which I thought was very fun. If only they had consulted on the show previously, so things could be slightly more realistic. But still, once again, another gold star gold star for potentially including real attorneys on the stage. And for them being in on the joke of just how ridiculous the whole ridiculous
Greg Lambert 52:06
the whole thing. Of course, the you know, the initial weird, awful terrible thing was that Jen gets announced as the winner, but then everyone else who was nominated also gets announced as a winner, the man of course, who is hosting the award ceremony. That mean just the the insults just keep coming. So he he the introductions are that these are women who do everything a regular lawyer does only backwards and in high heels, which of course is the the take off from Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire saying that, you know, everyone talks about Fred Astaire being a great dancer with Ginger Rogers has to do everything he does only backwards and in heels. But, you know, for that, that's, that was her kind of raising her profile. This is not and. And then and then of course, the first question is, what's it like being a female lawyer? And and I thought Mallory book gave a very good answer to that, which was, it's twice the work is half the recognition and you're constantly being asked things like, what's it like being a female lawyer? So, you know, again,
Ashley Carlisle 53:26
we're already the court reporter. Are you a paralegal? My personal favorites? And my legal career?
Greg Lambert 53:34
Yeah, I imagined or, or you're not allowed in here. And you know, unless you're with your attorney, because obviously you can't be the attorney. You hear these stories all the time. Jen actually kind of, you know, I think she's just in the moment, happy, happy to be there. And wants to take the time to think her friends and family and starts and then of course, you know, the whole thing goes to hell.
Ashley Carlisle 53:59
The whole thing just gets worse for her very quickly.
Greg Lambert 54:03
It's so awful. So turns out that too good to be true. Josh downloaded and all the information off of her phone intelligencia starts displaying it up on the big screen behind her. And then too good to be true. Josh really becomes awful, awful, awful, Josh, because apparently he had filmed their romantic trips together their trust together. And so we had talked earlier in episodes about if this is going to be about revenge porn, when there was definitely cameras around Jen that were being shown. Right. And, you know, as a real, real issue out there. And you know, with this being publicly displayed in front of the audience in front of her boss in front of her friends in front of her face Amelie, an illegal community and being told, you know, on the loudspeaker that, you know, she doesn't deserve to be the Hulk, you know, she's an awful person. And then you know, she's a slut here. Let me show you. And then they show the that scene. And so I don't know is what were your thoughts on what? What was going on there?
Ashley Carlisle 55:22
So I'll go into the kind of the awfulness of kind of what the intelligencia put up on the big screen. But my first thought was, it was so interesting that she mentioned in the fourth wall that, you know, am I going to be fringed? And yes, she wasn't traditionally fringed. But in a way, she was kind of like, I don't know, her soul was killed publicly, as a motivator for her to fight back. So it was kind of a weird juxtaposition of like them turning it on its head, and kind of bringing in this kind of modern issue that's facing a lot of women today. She is in LA. So just legally, it is a criminal offense in LA, I think it's a misdemeanor. So it doesn't like criminally doesn't carry a ton of weight. But I think the elements as long as she can prove that it wasn't consensual, which I'm pretty sure we can tell Josh did not tell her from what we saw, you know, in any way, shape, or form, that she definitely could pursue that because the standard is causes serious emotional distress. So it's not the Iied, it's like something she definitely can prove. In this case, it's very public awful. Also, right after this, they cut to her boss. So I think that shows we're going to have some type of professional repercussions. So she can definitely seek civil damages. If I mean, she's detained, we'll get to that. So I don't know if she'll have the opportunity. And then also, like, typically, you can file like harassment claims or unauthorized use of someone else's device, depending on how he got it. Because if I recall, he also downloaded a lot of things from her phone. So it's unclear if her phone was used if another device was used, kind of where that content lives would go into any like copyright claims or unauthorized use of someone's property, things like that. California is one of the few states where you can prosecute someone criminally but still, like I said, it's a misdemeanor. So it's not even that crazy. You know, it's like a fine, and you could technically have jail time the sentencing is multiplied if it's like really egregious, or you've done it multiple times. But like, really, it's a slap on the wrist. So it's awful. And then to me the most like gut wrenching part of this was like, yes, she fought back. Yes, she's she Hawks. She causes a lot of property damage. But she's annihilated publicly. And then she's the one being detained outside. Yeah. Yeah. I was like this poor girl.
Greg Lambert 57:34
Yeah. The let me let me ask you this. The Do you think that there's any defense that she has, with tearing down the video screen to stop people from seeing it? I mean, the the damage that she does? I mean, it seems like if I you know, if anyone had the power to do it, they would do it. That's just,
Ashley Carlisle 57:55
we I think it would reasonably fall out. I don't know because it wouldn't I don't know who would sue her. It gets complicated with like, it would be filing claims and
Greg Lambert 58:03
yes, the Wiltshire event place that there whatever ballroom they were in well, and they definitely could sue her for the whole she blasts in the in the Oh, yeah. Yes. And like us. I know. It's I know, that has good effect. But that's okay. I'm event insurance. Yeah, Jen, Jen, go, go use go use the door. So she goes outside and is really, really interesting, because the Department of damage control is already already mobilized. Yeah. And so it's almost as if they knew this was going to go down. And then they let the guy from the intelligencia just walked by, and they detain her. And so that's kind of where we end up. I know she kind of I couldn't tell if this was a breaking the fourth wall or if she was looking at something else. But right at the very end, she kind of moves to her right. And she looks and it looks to me like she's not looking at the camera, but past the camera, but it could just be bad CGI. You never know. So I don't know what she was looking at. Maybe we'll we'll find out in in the last episode. So any final thoughts? I mean, we're kind of ready for the finale. Now. I'm
Ashley Carlisle 59:20
really very ready. I guess my final question is, I don't know if you want to give it away. But just to tease like, who is your number one contender for the big bad guy?
Greg Lambert 59:31
Well, you know, we we are. I mean, it's it everything points to Todd. But then the one you know, I'm also not really sure about the about abomination. I know and so here at this episode, yeah. And so I mean, is he doing something on on the back end? I hope not. Because I really liked this new character. You know, the Tim Roth character
Ashley Carlisle 1:00:00
It's very entertaining. Yeah. Wellness retreat thing. Exactly. But
Greg Lambert 1:00:03
he did you know, we didn't see the, the the seven soulmates. So you know he is he has already kind of, you know, screwed seven women over, apparently. So we'll see what it is but I don't know it's too It seems too obvious that it's that it's Todd. Right. And so I don't know what what is your guess?
Ashley Carlisle 1:00:29
I've thought Todd throughout now that we're at the end, I feel like somehow Holloway is in cahoots or pulling the strings of a lot of things, because now looking back, like, I know, you guys talked about this, but it's not every day that a law partner offers you the head of a division in a bar, you know, going back, like, that's a bit of a stretch. Yeah, like Jen Walters is great gal, but like, that's a bit of a stretch. So what was this master plan that we're gonna see finally unfolds? I feel like he's somehow a part of it. Or if he's not a part of it, he's kind of leading us to who is and then the intelligencia thing is so hard, because in the comics, you know that they're such a vibrant force. But I don't know if they're going to completely follow the comics Exactly. Or if they're going to kind of branch off slightly and make a modern interpretation. So it's hard to kind of know, also what they're going to cover in one episode. It's not another season, there's a lot of source material to know exactly where they're going to jump in. And these
Greg Lambert 1:01:24
are not long episodes. So no, one of the things with with Holloway in the comics is much more. I mean, he's a much nicer character in the comics than he is. And the he's much more of a mentor in the comics, and then he is here. But yeah, he's kind of a, you know, I don't know, two, very two dimensional character. Seems like in this show, we will see, we will see. Well, Ashley Carlisle, I appreciate you taking the time stepping in this week and talking with me. I want you back next week, because I still want to hit you with the the awful marketing question that is going on? Oh, yeah. GLK/H. If you were the CMO of GLK/H. What would you do differently? It might be? Well, I want to hire Nikki full time because she's great. Or you know, I want to make sure Nikki never ever gives marketing advice. ever again. But the raise? Yeah, exactly. So I know from my aspect that we did not see enough of the Law Library. Maybe maybe next week, we can see more.
Ashley Carlisle 1:02:37
Or even the use of legal research. Yeah. I think we've only seen a random to do lists and some case management software and then the pleading on the screen. We haven't seen any of the real life stuff. It's been
Greg Lambert 1:02:47
mostly Microsoft Office, which which is very, yeah, that's true. So. All right. Well, thanks everyone for listening. In till next week. Everyone stay super. Thanks, Ashley.
Ashley Carlisle 1:03:00