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Greg Lambert 0:19
Imagine running a superhuman law division at a law firm. That’s exactly what we’re going to talk about here. And we’re going to start off the series by reviewing the new She Hulk Attorney at Law show on Disney plus. This week, we’re going to dive into Episode Six. Just Jen. I’m Greg Lambert alongside my superhuman law division co counsel, Joshua Lenon. Joshua, what did you think of just Jen?
Joshua Lenon 0:44
Just Jen, I thought it was probably an episode where they were attempting to save on CGI costs.
Greg Lambert 0:53
That is probably true. Right. Now, they did warn you right up front that this is a standalone episode about a wedding. So no, so no Daredevil, no. Matt Murdock,
Joshua Lenon 1:03
I always love the call back to kind of the original She Hulk, John Byrne gimmick of breaking the fourth wall. Right. And so when the actress looks right at the audience and and talks, I like that, I think it’s a neat callback to that series. It allows them to recognize kind of some of the ridiculousness of the series as well, which is pretty amazing. And I don’t know, did you notice that they even changed? Like the show title card?
Greg Lambert 1:36
Yeah. To just Jen. Just Jen. Jen. Yeah, they’ve done that before, because they’ve done the She Hulk lawyer for hire. Yeah. So they’ve changed the title card a few times in the series. And I I love a show that messes with the title card that does some unique things. And those are always fun, because I think it it is a way to tip your hat to the intelligence of the audience.
Joshua Lenon 2:02
I agree. It makes us feel like we’re all kind of participating in the story together.
Greg Lambert 2:07
Yeah, yeah. So this episode really kind of is broken into three parts. And I think that’s probably the best way to address it as I think we can take each part kind of individually if you if you’re okay with that. So we have the Mr. Immortal divorce. We have Jen’s high school friend Lulus wedding. So we have a wedding, and we have a divorce. And then we have kind of this combination of somebody spying on Jen. And I think this probably harkens back to the Wrecking Crew, and we have this new website called intelligencia. And so I think we can split that into three. I think the biggest non legal part of it would be the wedding. Do you want to take that up front?
Joshua Lenon 2:56
Yeah, yeah. I think there were very few legal issues in the wedding. Yeah, probably the biggest one was that there was an assault. Yes, right.
Greg Lambert 3:07
Now, everything’s about you, Jen. Except it really is
Joshua Lenon 3:10
it really was about Yeah, so Titania cons her way into the wedding as a plus one. And then once Jen has become a bit of numerated, and separated from the crowd, just sucker punches are right, very clearly assault. And one of the more interesting things that hasn’t been explored yet in the Marvel universe, is, oftentimes, certain types of criminal charges have aggregating factors that might increase the seriousness of the charge. So assault versus assault with a deadly weapon, for example. And what we haven’t seen explored yet.
Greg Lambert 3:51
Would Titania be a deadly weapon since she has superpowered?
Joshua Lenon 3:54
It could be that there was that also, we could take a look at her intent. Because she struck Jen when she was not in her She Hulk in vulnerable form, right. And so we can take a look at what she intending to do some type of serious or deadly damage as a part of the attack. Given that she has superpowers and the the person she was attacking at the time, was not like under the influence of superpowers, taking advantage of their superpowers. So there’s got to be when
Greg Lambert 4:29
she was under the influence, but not not for her superpower. So she was throwing up from over drinking and it was sucker punched, poor sportsmanship to say the least.
Joshua Lenon 4:41
But then, we can also have a similar charge against Jen later in that fight. So there’s a breather. Tatianna is kind of like taunting Jen to turn into she hawk and fight. And it seemed very clear that Jen could have no Got escalated the situation by just refusing to participate. Right. But instead, she transformed did property damage to the wedding venue which Tatianna hadn’t yet. Right? Right? He did her and kind of earthquake move and destroyed the patio. Yep. And then there’s some poor server who keeps getting thrown around by these women in the course of their fight. Yeah, yeah. So he definitely has a claim against both of them for reckless endangerment. And that was about it.
Greg Lambert 5:33
Yeah, there was a slapping of the cell phone out of out of a woman’s hand. So that that could be it. So I want to point out something that it’s not a legal issue, but I think goes more to the lifestyle of a lawyer and how it’s presented here. But one is, this is a Thursday wedding. And so Jennifer has to take off from work. And so she is somewhat reluctant to do it. Because that means that Mallory book has to take, she says, pick up her slack. And I think that’s a that is something that is constantly on the mind of attorneys, and that, you know, if I take a day off is going to hurt my career. I can’t take a breather, because someone’s going to swoop in and take my work away from me. So I think we got a little bit there. And then the other thing when she was talking to her friend Lulu, about and was really in a good, good place about talking about, hey, look, I’m the new head of the division at this very prestigious law firm. I’m doing great. And of course, then she was like, I don’t care about that. Are you dating someone? Yeah. So I think it just shows kind of a tough life that being a lawyer can can be I know, this is other industries as well. But you know, we’re in the legal industry, she’s playing a lawyer. So it’s something that we see a lot of, and kind of stretch it out a little bit, especially for women lawyers, that these types of pressures, taking care of children, doing things on your own, taking time off, to do fun things, or even for mental health days, is seen as something that could harm your career in the long run. And I think you see little snippets of that throughout the series.
Joshua Lenon 7:33
Yeah, we don’t know the full details of Jennifer’s employment agreement with JL K and H. Right. And so yes, she is the head of this division. But they also imply that she’s salaried, right. She’s not a partner, right, which is very unusual to be both the head of a team at a law firm and not be a partner. And that means that any way to improve her compensation at the company will evolve, meeting her billable hourly targets. Most big law firms will set a billable hour target, how many hours you bill in a year. And then if you hit that, you’ll be eligible for some type of bonus. Yeah. When Jen’s worried about falling behind, I mean, a day of lost billable hours can be really tough to try and squeeze in somewhere else when you’ve got a high target that you’ve got to get to.
Greg Lambert 8:27
Yep, anything else at the wedding that we need to cover?
Joshua Lenon 8:31
I am kind of wondering if we’re seeing and this is going to tie into I think our later point the Wrecking Crew guys pop back in as some of the prospective daters and other romantic foils that we’ve seen.
Greg Lambert 8:50
I think I’m thinking the the guy, Josh, that she’s chatting up at the wedding. I think he’s, I think he’s somehow involved in that. So yeah, even when it seems to be going good, it’s going bad. So
Joshua Lenon 9:07
right now. Yeah, Borgia.
Greg Lambert 9:10
All right. Well, let’s let’s jump over into the divorce case of Mr. Mortal this really harkens back to the dance slot series where they took very kind of legitimate legal issues and applied superhuman possibilities to it and I think this is a fantastic case study in legal issues. I think it was well briefed us for for us, Mr. Linen.
Joshua Lenon 9:41
Yeah, so JL, K, and H as a new client, come to the firm, who is functionally immortal, so apparently is not invulnerable, but will regenerate and revive even after a life threatening injury. Yes, yes. And one of the things that’s awesome implied is that he is also somewhat ageless, or at least has lived for an exceptionally long period of time. Yeah. Because he talks about really long ago historical events. And over the course of his immortal existence He has loved and lost and, and seems to do so with quite a bit of frequency. Yes, yes. And his solution to when whatever Paramore has lost their luster and things be the relationship becomes work is he doesn’t fake his own death, he triggers his own death in some way. And then just kind of gets up and walks away afterwards. Only defied yet another new love of his life. Yeah, so
Greg Lambert 10:52
I guess he really epitomizes the it’s better to have loved and lost than not to have loved at all. And He has loved in, in many people have lost along the way. So I think there’s eight, seven or eight. I think there’s eight former spouses that are there. And so unfortunately, modern technology has caught up to Mr. Immortal. And that normally, I guess with the other divorces, deaths, spouses, yeah, he’s kind of gotten away with it. Yeah, the spouses he has faked. Well, I guess he’s really died. And then let the spouses think that he’s dead. He revives themselves later and walks away, creates a new identity, and seems to fall in love and get married again, over and over. And unfortunately for him with cell phone cameras, one of his deaths was caught and was placed on this website called The intelligencia website. And one of his former spouses sees that and realizes that he’s alive, and thus files for divorce. So he’s coming to GLK and H to get advice on how to handle this divorce.
Joshua Lenon 12:15
Right really, really
Greg Lambert 12:16
interesting. set of facts here.
Joshua Lenon 12:20
One of the things that I said in the earlier episode about the magician Donny Blaze, is that if I were attempting to shut down Donnie Blaze and his magic, I wouldn’t have used Wong as the plaintiff, I would have used the the audience members that Donnie Blaze was teleporting against their will and abandoning right. And here we see the spouse is actually doing that exact same thing they have unified in our common app Mr are mortal, for his actions and his abuse of his own innate abilities. for his benefit.
Greg Lambert 12:55
We have kind of this kind of quasi it’s almost like a mini class action suit as well as an arbitration. The whole style of this is is kind of bizarre. And because Jen is taking off to go to this wedding, her paralegal Nikki is teamed up with Mallory book, and they are interviewing Mr. mortal and taking his case. And then somehow or another, they’re also doing the arbitration, it seems like on the same day, so absolutely.
Joshua Lenon 13:29
So here’s how I think this came about. And again, we have to make a lot of assumptions in a 2022 minute show on Yeah, on what actually is happening. But you have the spouse is looking for the divorce. She is bringing in the previous spouses as kind of character witnesses, evidence of fraud, right, and using those as a part of her divorce action. But the spouses also have potential future claims of their own. They could file for criminal charges of bigamy, which is when somebody who is married, goes out and marries someone else later, usually through fraud. They could also have like civil liability claims of fraud against Mr. Mortal himself, that, you know, he faked his identity, he lied about his abilities, then we know in at least two other instance, two of the spouses that they had some really serious consequences because of that. One, founded a business with Mr. Immortal and worked with him on it for two years. Another former spouse had a kid with Mr are mortal, that he then was dead and so there was never any child support or involvement on behalf of that. And given that A Mr. Immortal and as we get an example of his abilities in just a little bit, given that there really isn’t this period where he’s incapacitated, right, yeah, that he should have been providing support for, say, like the kid if nothing else, if not alimony under a divorce.
Greg Lambert 15:18
It’s really, really interesting concept on this because I was trying to think if if the facts were most favorable to Mr. mortal, and you could prove that I truly did die. Yeah, do your contracts, you know, die with you. And so here we have a set of facts that, so forth, for example, if someone were to disappear for a number of years and was legally pronounced dead, and they came back, what are some of the ramifications of that? I know that’s, you know, at least has happened on television shows before I’m sure. And I’m sure it’s probably happened in real life where people have disappeared for death and run off. Yeah, and then come back. So really kind of kind of an interesting set of facts. But yeah, I think Mr. Immortal thinks of himself as a good guy. And that this is false. That says that a lot. Like I always say, if you if you had to say that you’re cool, you’re not. And so if you have to say you’re a good guy, you’re probably not a good guy. And so we do get an example of what happens because he seems so adverse to having conflict, that when he’s discussing the divorce with Mallory book, and with Nikki, they start kind of arguing back and forth talking amongst themselves. And then he goes and just jumps out the window of you know, I’m sure the 45 Yeah, the law. Yeah, and lands on a poor security car down below, so
Joshua Lenon 17:01
limits to his death, and then just gets up and walks away,
Greg Lambert 17:06
kind of straightens out is his broken bones and walks off. Yeah, Joshua, this is where we have this week’s QR code was on the security car. And what does this lead to? It takes you to West Coast Avengers number 46, which is the first episode our first issue with Mr. Immortal, so Mr. Mortal get a little surprise there.
Joshua Lenon 17:32
Oh, that’s excellent. I’m gonna have to go read that. So I actually had some real problems with this scene from client service perspective. So one of the things that they raise is, Mr. Mortal resist the fact that he doesn’t think lawyers or his lawyer is allowed to, like, disagree with him. Like, I’m a good guy. Both Mallory
Greg Lambert 17:56
and no, lawyers are supposed to be so judgmental.
Joshua Lenon 18:00
Exactly. And it’s completely false. You can have personal opinions about your clients. You can even voice them in situations where it won’t impact your clients interests, say, like with your client, like that was a really dumb move. But what you can’t do is re act that way in situations where it might harm your clients interest, say before a court, or in a public negotiation or on camera. And so the idea that lawyers have to like and have to agree with their clients. It’s just not the case. And I’m really glad that they represented that here. But
Greg Lambert 18:42
I felt a but coming Yeah.
Joshua Lenon 18:45
Mallory in particular was very argumentative, and very, sort of looking for aggressive in conveying her opinion to Mr. Murrell. Much more so than a professional setting entailed. And it is after that aggressiveness that Mr. Mortal flings himself out the window. From an employment law perspective, if my paralegal is causing my clients to commit temporary suicide, that’s a problem. And yeah, and so I do think we’re, and as we discussed in the previous episode, that we we see Nikki’s duties as a paralegal are not in alignment with what we see in our universe as opposed to Marvel Cinematic Universe.
Greg Lambert 19:38
Yeah, and I think this is a good spot to point out that I wasn’t sure how I was going to like or not like Mallory book, but I will tell you that I think she she is a fantastic person to work with. There’s a number of things that she does in the As part of the show with a divorce proceedings with Nikki, that I think shows that she is a leader, and that she is also a mentor. And so you see a number of things that Nikki is doing, which I think goes back to her days working with Jennifer, both at the prosecutor’s office and then as she’s moved over and as become the paralegal for her there at GLK and H, if you notice, Nikki, when she comes in, she walks in and sits behind kind of on the window, behind Mr. Immortal, and without making any type of overt gesture. Mallory guides her to co sit in the chair next to the client. So I think that was good. She also attempted to keep negative conversation Yeah, to wrap the conversation. And you can see, again, not doing anything over the top, but just kind of making signals to her. This is not the time to talk, let me handle this. And, of course, Nikki does not follow those instructions all the way. But then also, toward the end. One of the things that she does because of Nikki’s involvement and getting a settlement is that she compliments her tells her that what she did was unique and was you know, it was outstanding, and she does it in front of the client and the others. So giving her that public recognition that really boosts the confidence of a lot of employees. So Mallory Brooke is someone I would love to work with, because I think she she knows how to handle people. She also looks like even though she is completely in control, seemingly all the time. She also has a personality that comes out. You see that a couple of times as well. So she’s definitely someone that I think a lot of lawyers and staff would love to work with.
Joshua Lenon 22:04
And interestingly, we learned some personal facts about her as well. She has she as a kid.
Greg Lambert 22:10
She has kid and she’s married and apparently like nobody knows this. So. So she’s very quiet. Yeah.
Joshua Lenon 22:17
She hasn’t made it like something front and center, which could be because of the office environment. And as we’ve talked about, yeah, the difficulty is in advancing. I had one last issue with the Mr. Murrell introduction. And that was after he flung himself out the window and crushed a car underneath. They kept him as a client. Yeah. Why would you do that? Our listeners may not know, but lawyers can fire clients, so long as it doesn’t impact the client’s interests. And so there may be situations like if you’re in a trial, where you may have to get the judge’s permission to withdraw. But here we’ve got basically the initial consultation. And the guy seriously endangers at least whoever was supposed to be in that security car that he lands on. So I would not want that. That person as a client at all. Yeah, I would say thank you. Let me direct you to some of some other lawyer directories where you might find a firm that’s better suited to your particular needs.
Greg Lambert 23:25
Yeah. And also, well, there’s a couple of things. One is I think this also again, shows that the the GLK and H’s superhuman law division is set up not to necessarily make a profit, but rather as a PR wing. And so I think that’s my guess is and of course, we have no facts to back this up. Is it probably Mr. Holloway is not allowing them to fire this client that Yeah, that could use building. Division. Yeah. Yeah. So what did you think of the negotiations? For for the divorce? I thought it was just weird.
Joshua Lenon 24:11
It was weird in that we didn’t actually get anybody who identified themselves as the lawyer for the divorcing spouse or the previous spouses. Right. And everybody’s just kind of chiming in.
Greg Lambert 24:24
And we saw some security guys kind of in the background, so I’m not Yeah, not sure what that was, but an absolutely no legal representation for the other side.
Joshua Lenon 24:32
And as we see, later on, everybody has some really divergent interest in what they want to get out of negotiating with Mr. Immortal like some people want money. Some people want an apology. Some people I think they had some real estate that transferred hands. And so the fact that all of these people were unrepresented or were represented by a maybe a single lawyer, we don’t know is probably not some thing that you would see in situations like that they would they would try and find somebody right to represent their interests. We also didn’t really see all the harms that are probably going to be the fallout of Mr. Immortals through abilities becoming public. Presumably, for example, some spouse has collected life insurance on Mr. mortal, right. And if he’s not really dead, was that was that insurance fraud, and now they have to deal with insurance fraud claims. And we didn’t see the back child support being a part of the settlement either, right. There were there are a lot of issues that could have been just mentioned as parts of settlements, right. And weren’t. And so instead, we got kind of some, a little more silly things like Mr. Mortal will give you a heartfelt apology that will last 15 seconds and will include direct eye contact contact.
Greg Lambert 26:04
Yeah. And that was that was the one concession that he disagreed with. Yeah, yeah.
Joshua Lenon 26:12
And there was that funny scene where it looked like he was going to try and throw himself out the window again. Right. And both both Mallory and Nikki gently guided him back down, you
Greg Lambert 26:23
can sit back down here. So I don’t know if you saw in the in the court drawings at the in the credit scenes, there’s the scene where Nikki is holding the iPhone timer set at 20. And yeah, Mr. Mortals, wedding. Yeah. So he’s. So apparently he did get to pay off that debt. And yeah, you’re right. It’s it was silly. But you know, it really, you know, again, as an academic endeavor, you could think about the fact that if you did have someone that could not die, just all of the issues that would come about with that the legal issues. Yeah. And especially if they were trying to hide the fact that they could not die.
Joshua Lenon 27:08
Even Yeah, even in the real world. We have scenarios that roughly aligned with these facts, right, Mr. mortal, threw himself out the window, landed on a car died, and then an instant later got up and walked away. Right. And we have people in the real world who unfortunately expire and are revived. And nobody says, Oh, well, you died for, you know, three seconds, your marriage is over. And you don’t have to pay your student loans. Congratulations. Yes, you win. You win. Yeah, that’s that’s just not how it works. And so Mr. Immortal claiming to be a good guy. He’s clearly not with the facts as presented.
Greg Lambert 27:46
Yeah. But again, in, in the Rules of Civil Procedure four, or 616, we have to get this all settled in one self contained episodes. Yeah, yeah, lots of bending of reality in these television shows,
Joshua Lenon 28:04
given that if I were a life insurance company, for example, or a security company whose car had gotten crushed, there’s, there’s gonna be lots of business coming from Mr. Mortal to GL dnh. Somebody’s got to pay for that window. Somebody’s got to pay for that window. So the real question, though, is, how do you as a law firm, protect yourself when your client does something dumb like that in the off law office? And it’s an unfortunate reality that for many family law lawyers, that they really have to think about security as a part of their law firm operations. Can we lock the door? Can we control visibility? Because upset spouses and family law cases, are highly emotional and can be highly volatile? They aren’t always as humorous as Mr. Immortal.
Greg Lambert 28:55
No, it’s not. It can be serious. And I think if, if you recall, back to the early 90s, I think there was the was Pillsbury office, and I think of San Francisco, yeah, where a disgruntled client came in and shot and killed a number of attorneys, because he had lost his case. And so security is a big issue, because there are very upset people who, who lose lots of money or property or intellectual property rights or number of
Joshua Lenon 29:29
kids or Yeah, and so while this was viewed humorously, I do think yeah, we’re gonna see JL K and H have to start spending on things that a white shoe law firm might not have considered in the past.
Greg Lambert 29:43
The other issue that I had with the window was it was single easily it broke very easily broke. So They at least need to get double pane windows. Come on. That’s Yes, it’s LA but it’s still gonna need to
Joshua Lenon 29:59
know And we’re totally seeing their insurance just skyrocket now.
Greg Lambert 30:03
So during the divorce proceedings, we did get mention of the intelligencia website. And so we dive a little bit more into that. Nikki and Mallory pull this up and find lots of information. Very disturbing post and information on She Hulk. And it’s kind of this. I don’t know, it’s a mix between like a Reddit website and like, like 4chan? Yeah, a chan website. And the thing I found interesting was, you had to get approval to even log in to get an account for this. And you got approval by basically insulting She Hulk. Yeah, it was kind of weird. But luckily, the Nicki and Mallory have weathered enough insults themselves that they were able to, to come up with some things they’d heard to get them. And yeah, and on the site, you saw things like, how do we SWAT She Hulk? Yeah. And then there was posts that asked how do we kill She Hulk and there, you know, just death threats that were going on? There are sites like this. And of course, with the at least here in the United States, there are laws that kind of protect some of these sites from the what the users place on them. This is really kind of kind of pushing that to the extreme.
Joshua Lenon 31:30
Yeah. And so there are a couple of issues raised here. The first of which is, is this protected speech. And so the First Amendment of the Constitution limits the government’s ability to impose or limit speech, we really struggle in the US with the concept of hate speech, for example, as something that can be regulated, we see in these organized communities of hate that unfortunately, allowing it kind of to fester, can act as almost a we mentioned aggravating factor before but this would be something that ramps up the hate. Yeah, yeah. And so somebody who just doesn’t like She Hulk suit is now unfortunately, part of a hate filled community, and is getting propagandized and radicalized from these things. But yeah, the US is definitely continuing to struggle with how do we as both a society and a government handle this, as well as respecting the First Amendment. But then we can look at it from a commercial perspective. So the intelligencia, who was providing the space for this forum, could or could not be controlling it. Because the First Amendment only limits the government, the intelligencia website could have its own Terms of Service could regulate certain types of content. And this is very important, cannot be held liable for some of this type of content under the infamous section 230, which is actually a really important bit of federal legislation in the US that enables this type of community created content, because it exempts the content host from liability around the content. And it was meant to be an IP law. Right? If somebody downloads an episode of She Hulk and posts it on your forum, right for everybody else to download, you, as the forum host, are not liable for the copyright infringement. It’s the poster who is, but it’s been greatly expanded to cover all kinds of hateful conduct. And we’re going to have to continue to wrestle with this issue for a long period of time to come. Can the government limit this hate speech? That’s still an evolving issue, legally speaking, some can. But the test for it is very, very strict. Can a corporation do so they can? Is the corporation liable for this? Probably not under Section 230. Those are some of the issues that just come from the fact that this place exists.
Greg Lambert 34:23
And we kind of get a hint that this website is tied to the same people that sent the Wrecking Crew out to try and get some of Jen’s blood as she Hulk. We see that Jen and her wedding date Josh are being monitored. And not only are they being monitored, but visually through cameras. There’s also seems to be some readings coming off of Jen for her gamma radiation. Yeah. And then we see the bent needle from the previous attack, where they tried to draw blood and now we see what we think is probably Todd’s Vibranium needle that he that he talked about on the date. So, and we hear that or we see this pop up from someone called Hope King, which that name also showed up on the intelligencia website as well. Maybe the leader, I think
Joshua Lenon 35:20
you’re right. And when you say the leader, you’re saying it as a proper noun. So that’s actually a comic book character called the leader, leader. And I think we’ve mentioned
Greg Lambert 35:29
gamma radiation. Yeah, person, but I’m pretty sure that that sleazy guy Todd is is definitely tied up in this. Yeah, I
Joshua Lenon 35:38
have to agree. Unfortunately, Jen’s love life is definitely intersecting with she hawks villain roster, and not in a good way
Greg Lambert 35:46
for Gen. Or Gen. Well, I think that kind of wraps up all the issues in this episode. Is there anything else? Well, I
Joshua Lenon 35:54
always want to remind our audience to stay super. In terms of legal issues. I actually am eager for Jen to get back into the law firm. So we can learn a little bit more about JL K and H and what are they planning? So for me, the business side of jail K and H is something that’s unexplored. And I’d like to see more of it. How about anything for you?
Greg Lambert 36:15
Yeah, I’m the same way. You know, the the one other thing that I saw, which was that Mallory did also have a bar set up in her office. I liked that. I think more law firms should have that. I’ll, I’ll pass that along to my office administrator decides to give me a budget for that, but I doubt she will. And of course, I really want to get into the law library that we’re just not seeing enough or not seeing that.
Joshua Lenon 36:41
Yeah, for the Law Librarian. That’s a critical flaw. All right. Well, thank you, Greg.